“I think you cannot afford it here as well. We are allies, not subordinates, so such rules of balance in relations between allies must exist. If not, it means that we are not allies, but we are treated as a territory for ideological conquest, ” stated Prof. Ryszard Legutko, PiS MEP.
wPolityce.pl: The American Embassy in Poland made a scandalous entry on Twitter, in which it compared the situation in Iran with the situation in Poland that allegedly LGBT people in Poland are being persecuted in the same way as in Iran. What is this type of entry for?
Prof. Ryszard Legutko: I think this is a consequence of this ideological hard line adopted by the US government and the US administration after the elections – with a sharp turn to the left. The American Embassy is starting to play a bit of an ideological watchdog role, just as the Soviet embassy used to do. At that time, our anti-socialist forces acted against the system, and now homophobic forces, and, yes, it is true, we condemn it here. It is so outrageous that I am at a loss for words.
I think whoever runs this embassy, because the ambassador is not here yet, should be summoned and reprimanded. I know that we have more lasting and more long-term interests with America, but this is no reason to behave in such a brazen and rude manner, entirely without moderation and regardless of the sensitivity of Poles to their sense of dignity and sovereignty.
You do not have to be a brilliant and skilled person to admit that in Poland, the number of attacks on homosexuals is one of the lowest in Europe, according to OSCE data. Anyway, one can check the latest data: if I remember correctly, in 2019 – about 110 cases a year, while the Netherlands, a much smaller country – about 600 cases, Germany – 200, etc. In France also many cases, so voicing such things is a lie and aggression against Polish consciousness and sense of its national dignity. I must say I am at a loss for words. This is something that would probably even embarrass a Soviet ambassador.
To what extent is this a form of aggression or pressure on Poland, and to what extent is it an element of the disinformation campaign carried out by leftist circles in the broadly understood West?
I think both. The paradox is that these circles have gained unbelievable power: governments, international organizations, corporations, educational institutions – all fly LGBT flags, run campaigns, suppress any criticism of these communities. However, the paradox is that the activists claim they are persecuted and discriminated against. This is not even a paradox. This is something more because it is outrageous how one can present such a distorted picture of reality! At the same time, many people fall for it. If, let us say, only one-hundredth of the contributions made to pro-LGBT campaigns worldwide was to be allocated to the defense of Christians who are being murdered as the most persecuted religious group in many years – their fate would be significantly improved.
Moreover, of course, it is not about LGBT. It is about a moral, legal, and political revolution, social engineering to transform the world. This is a revolution that aims to “recycle” the existing morality and moral behavior, which is threatening because, as I said, the most potent forces in the modern world are involved: political, economic, the media, and academia. It is insanely dangerous.
This is not the first incident of this type on the part of the American embassy. The question is, what kind of atmosphere does this create in mutual relations? What kind of atmosphere does this create for these allied ties? After all, the way Poles perceive it is relatively unambiguous.
I want to believe that the strategic, long-term issues will remain relatively stable because common sense and all other considerations that count in politics require it. Nevertheless, on the other hand, such a terrible asymmetry must not be allowed to exist. We do not criticize the American government and American politics. The Polish embassy in the US does nothing that would be remotely comparable to this. I do not think it should be taking place here either. We are allies, not subordinates, so a balance in relations between allies must exist. If not, it means that we are not allies. We are being treated as a territory for ideological conquest.
Is it even an accepted practice in diplomacy that a country with an embassy in a given country speaks badly on social media about the country that hosts it?
No, that is obviously not accepted. There is a code of diplomats’ behavior, but of course, it gets broken. In weaker countries, diplomats from large countries behave very aggressively, but it only happens behind closed doors in most cases. For example, an ambassador, also an American ambassador, comes to the prime minister or to some high-level official of the country that hosts him and rags on him/her. This, unfortunately, happens. Here, however, we are dealing with a rather ostentatious form of behavior.
Similarly, this whole pathetic initiative of these annual or bi-annual letters from ambassadors in Poland on LGBT issues. They are also insulting, but it all shows this state of mind of today’s Westerners. It is an “enslaved mind,” that is, a mind in bondage. I compared it with the Soviet ideology because it is the exact mechanism of absolute mental unification and one ideology that binds and organizes everything. So, it is not good.
Does this enslavement of minds bring with it a collapse of diplomacy?
There is always some level of diplomacy. Only we had a slightly naive picture of reality when we left behind the communist system because we perceived the Western world as the world of gentlemen. We thought that the thugs, gangsters, and brutes were in the East, were communists, while here in the West, it was completely different, that one would speak to the graduates of Oxford and Harvard as one would talk at scientific conferences or some formal meetings. We did not realize that these political relations would be so brutal and that there would be so much asymmetry. Some people are brutal and can do more, and some people are mistreated and can do less. This is the first issue.
The second thing we were not aware of was that it seemed to us that this Western world was pluralistic, a world of multiplicity, diversity, a mosaic for all views … Well, it turns out that it is a mono-ideological world. Especially in the last several years, this has intensified. One ideology is being stuffed into people’s ears and minds by the media, academic institutions, and political forces in such a deafening orchestration. It is the same everywhere, and whoever breaks out of it, and does not sing in this choir, just like Poland, becomes a target of aggression. We did not realize this. The sooner we realize this and draw some practical as well as theoretical conclusions, the better.
Does this mean that the ideological pressure on Poland, both from the United States and probably from other Western countries, will increase?
Yes, that is what it means. Currently, some new regulations are being prepared by the EU Commission with changes to treaties. The direction is known, but it is unknown how radical it will be so the next few years will be perilous. There will be pressure from both the EU and the United States, and also – let us not forget – international corporations, the big ones. Not only BigTech, but all large corporations with a lot to say and will harass Poland in one way or another until we give up and join this choir, which I hope will not happen, but one needs to be aware of the battle taking place.
Thank you for this conversation.