“In my view, Germany is playing quite deliberately for PiS to lose power. This is actually an active attempt to overthrow a government that has democratic legitimacy. This is truly outrageous; it is hard to believe that this is even happening. I simply am at a lack for words,” says Professor Bogdan Musiał, a historian living in Germany, in an interview with the wPolityce.pl portal.
wPolityce.pl: How is the judgment of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal perceived in Germany? After all, it is analogous to the German one – both Courts stated that the CJEU could not undertake to rule on the interpretation of EU competences. How is it perceived, and is Germany trying to discredit this judgment in any way in the public debate?
Prof. Bogdan Musiał: There was some discussion but no evaluation or criticism – no harsh comments after the verdict. What is happening now is very characteristic. You could say “all quiet on the Western front.” They have completely ignored the fact that the ruling of the German Constitutional Tribunal was practically identical, they completely overlook it. Earlier, there was an interview with Andreas Voßkuhle, the former chairman of this Tribunal – prior to any Polish judgment – where Voßkuhle when asked about it, confirmed that it was the right decision. He said, more or less in a racist manner, that Poles are immature and must submit, that civilizationally speaking the Poles are immature, which can be inferred thusly from the subtext. This is where the German anti-Polish prejudices surface, that the Poles are not mature for democracy, and that is why they need to be lectured and guided.
Mr. Voßkuhle was the chairman of the Tribunal, which was founded by representatives of the NSDAP. One of the first members of the Constitutional Tribunal was here in Poland, in the government of the General Government – a criminal, because according to Polish law, all officials of the General Governor’s Office, starting with the starost, are criminals and originate from a criminal organization. And these people founded this Constitutional Tribunal, and he teaches Poles that they are not mature civilizationally, so they need to be educated – this is quite characteristic. And now, as the judgment of their Constitutional Tribunal has been replicated by the Polish Constitutional Tribunal, they completely ignore this aspect. As if there was no earlier judgment of the Tribunal in Karlsruhe. The two are not being linked together because that’s how the message is set up, and how the politicians set it up. The German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, together with his French counterpart, stated that the decision of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal was a breach of European Union principles, which, in my opinion, is a scandal. These are the realities.
In my opinion, Germany is play acting quite deliberately to make PiS lose power. This is actually an active attempt to overthrow a government that has democratic legitimacy. This is truly outrageous. It’s hard to believe that this is even happening. I simply run out of words. When I hear the journalists’ comments, I really wonder whether they believe what they are saying, or whether this anti-Polish prejudice is already so strong that it is distorting their view of events. Perhaps the prejudice is so distorting that they completely fail to notice what nonsense – it cannot be called any other name – they are talking about.
Or is it that they are simply obscuring their reality? The goal of further economic and political domination of Poland?
The goal has already been achieved because Germany has dominated Poland economically. Politically, the Polish economy has been colonized by Germany. For the Germans, it is more of a problem if Poland tries to emancipate itself, to be more independent in a sense because the Germans exploit Poland on a large scale. The German government supported corruption in Poland. It did so deliberately. They knew that this would facilitate their colonization and exploitation of Poland. I want to emphasize that I am a supporter of economic cooperation because without it our country would not function well; however, all pathologies should be fought, pathologies such as corruption, which makes it easier for the Germans to operate in Poland, because they supported certain political parties. They probably still do, but maybe in a different form. Once it was literally by bringing along money in suitcases earmarked for a specific party, to Gdańsk in particular, and now, in a sense, they are harvesting the crops. But it is all at the expense of the Poles. This is tragic. And, of course, the Germans do not want to let go; they do not want Poland to be ruled by a party that, for example, demands war reparations. From their point of view, this is unheard of.
They perceive Poland in a very racist way and there is no other way to call it. This has been a German tradition practically since the 19th century, and the Germans have not yet come to terms with it. These anti-Polish prejudices are so firmly ingrained in them that they do not even realize that they have such prejudices because they are convinced that it is so. This is anti-Polonism written into the German cultural DNA. As long as they are not aware of this, we will have the situation we have. Poles have to deal with it somehow because the Germans are comfortable with such a perception of Poland, and now, of course, they have instruments in their arsenal – pressure through Brussels – and they would like to implement it politically so that Poland would become a country like during the times of Donald Tusk. They would love to see a prime minister in Poland who would completely ignore the interests of the Polish state and would be subordinate to them – a person who would be a perfect executor of orders from Berlin and, of course, from Moscow. Donald Tusk is just like Putin.
Geopolitically, Poland is an obstruction to Germany in this Russian-Putin-German alliance. After all, Germany had great dissatisfaction with the conflict over the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Still, it showed that Polish interests are different, and Germany does not care at all about any international solidarity, peace, or security. This aspect plays no role whatsoever. They overlook the aspect that they actually support Putin’s war. This is passed over in silence. The ruling CDU / CSU parties have managed to bash the public media so badly that there is not a single center from where a different voice could be heard. There are exceptions – sometimes a single voice will break through – but this is not a balanced, normal debate. The Germans are getting brainwashed to such an extent that the issue of, for example, Nord Stream 2 is seen as purely a financial one. Currently, of course, this ignores the fact – there are many indications of this – that Putin does indeed manipulate gas prices, or at least influence them.
There are voices, but they are isolated, as in some of the printed media, but this is unlikely to be found in the public media, that if the Greens and the FPD are to be in power to block the SPD, they should stop supporting Putin so much. But these are single voices, and they are not widely heard. Islam is promoted on German television, and Poland is, as always, put down. Unfortunately.
Are there any statements in this German political discourse that try to put pressure on the CJEU, for example, on the conditionality mechanism or other issues that concern Poland?
There are such voices of indignation all the time that pressure cannot be let up on Poland. This is standard in Germany. It is said that terrible things are happening in Poland. When you read it, it seems that it is scary to go out into the streets at all in Poland because there’s such “heavy censure” there.
Those like judge Iwulski simply hold Poland back (a judge who charged and sentenced innocent Poles during the martial law period. There are attempts at holding him and others like him accountable for crimes during the communist era as part of Poland’s judicial reform) but Germany completely ignores this aspect. It is unimaginable, but unfortunately, this is their tradition from the National Socialism period because all these judges have made it through unscathed from one system to another. The system had not been reformed. It was kept intact, and the criminals protected themselves. I’m talking about lawyers and judges.
It was similar in Poland, but there was still some resistance movement in Poland, while in Germany, there was never an anti-Nazi resistance movement. Only later, when everything collapsed. But there were no broader movements to oppose National Socialism. It was the same in the GDR. Germany does not have a tradition of fighting for freedom, fighting for democracy. It is not a German tradition; they did not have it. Germany as a country has a different past. Poles have this tradition of fighting for independence. Once, I asked a German from the GDR why they did not try to go on strikes, and he replied, “Well, it was forbidden.” Resistance was forbidden, and now, of course, they are playing the great defenders of democracy and the rule of law, which is an extraordinary level of hypocrisy.
The German constitution, which they so protect and which they are so proud of, has two articles designed to protect German criminals from punishment. They omit the aspect that their constitution was intended to safeguard German criminals, their own, from punishment. This is still the case today, but they keep silent about it. They learned one thing after 1945 through intrigues, machinations, misrepresentations – they became masters of historical and other propaganda. They really are champions. If the main instrument of the German state to this day is not the army, which they do not have, but propaganda, then we must remember that propaganda works only in black and white images because propaganda cannot perceive shades of gray – otherwise, it would not function. This is the principle of propaganda. And who is the main target of this propaganda? Who are the “black sheep?” Why, the Polish people. This has been going on for a long time, and it is to Germany that we owe this image of Poland in and outside of Germany. The “black sheep” is not Putin, or any other dictator, or Lukashenko. In German propaganda, the greatest threat to peace in Europe is Kaczyński and PiS. It is incredible, but that is how it works.
If the Germans had come to terms with National Socialism and the legacy of the NSDAP back then, after 1945, would everything look different today?
The Germans could not afford to settle accounts, to lock up all the men in the country. The crime was so great that if they punished those responsible, the state simply could not function. Not that I’m defending them, but in Germany, they were all National Socialists. If all those responsible for the crime were directly or indirectly arrested, they would have to arrest the state because the entire state apparatus was involved. They didn’t have other people to replace them; there was no such possibility. They were forced to protect themselves for the state to function. It sounds paradoxical, but that’s how it was. Therefore, they had to work out a defense mechanism. They play it out using propaganda – someone will kneel once in a while to express or display a sense of guilt. Still, the criminals are legally protected against penalties, and Germany does not want to pay for war damages because this would be a heavy burden on the German budget. If they were to pay for the damages that were not the result of military battles but deliberate destruction, quite a sum would have accumulated – a few percent of their GDP would be gone. They are protecting themselves against this, and that is why they will continue to slander Poland. No one in the international arena will support Poland’s demands for reparation because of Poland’s bad image. This is how propaganda works, and we must be aware of it. It sounds brutal, but Poland has no chance in such a case because Poland does not have soft power. Poland has a problem in Poland itself – after all we have German lobbying – and I don’t know if this is an adequate term for these people. There exists an infatuation with Germany in Poland, which is quite dangerous for Poland.
Thank you for the interview
https://wpolityce.pl/swiat/569883-prof-musial-niemcy-graja-na-to-aby-pis-stracil-wladze
“In my view, Germany is playing quite deliberately for PiS to lose power. This is actually an active attempt to overthrow a government that has democratic legitimacy. This is truly outrageous; it is hard to believe that this is even happening. I simply am at a lack for words,” says Professor Bogdan Musiał, a historian living in Germany, in an interview with the wPolityce.pl portal.
wPolityce.pl: How is the judgment of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal perceived in Germany? After all, it is analogous to the German one – both Courts stated that the CJEU could not undertake to rule on the interpretation of EU competences. How is it perceived, and is Germany trying to discredit this judgment in any way in the public debate?
Prof. Bogdan Musiał: There was some discussion but no evaluation or criticism – no harsh comments after the verdict. What is happening now is very characteristic. You could say “all quiet on the Western front.” They have completely ignored the fact that the ruling of the German Constitutional Tribunal was practically identical, they completely overlook it. Earlier, there was an interview with Andreas Voßkuhle, the former chairman of this Tribunal – prior to any Polish judgment – where Voßkuhle when asked about it, confirmed that it was the right decision. He said, more or less in a racist manner, that Poles are immature and must submit, that civilizationally speaking the Poles are immature, which can be inferred thusly from the subtext. This is where the German anti-Polish prejudices surface, that the Poles are not mature for democracy, and that is why they need to be lectured and guided.
Mr. Voßkuhle was the chairman of the Tribunal, which was founded by representatives of the NSDAP. One of the first members of the Constitutional Tribunal was here in Poland, in the government of the General Government – a criminal, because according to Polish law, all officials of the General Governor’s Office, starting with the starost, are criminals and originate from a criminal organization. And these people founded this Constitutional Tribunal, and he teaches Poles that they are not mature civilizationally, so they need to be educated – this is quite characteristic. And now, as the judgment of their Constitutional Tribunal has been replicated by the Polish Constitutional Tribunal, they completely ignore this aspect. As if there was no earlier judgment of the Tribunal in Karlsruhe. The two are not being linked together because that’s how the message is set up, and how the politicians set it up. The German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas, together with his French counterpart, stated that the decision of the Polish Constitutional Tribunal was a breach of European Union principles, which, in my opinion, is a scandal. These are the realities.
In my opinion, Germany is play acting quite deliberately to make PiS lose power. This is actually an active attempt to overthrow a government that has democratic legitimacy. This is truly outrageous. It’s hard to believe that this is even happening. I simply run out of words. When I hear the journalists’ comments, I really wonder whether they believe what they are saying, or whether this anti-Polish prejudice is already so strong that it is distorting their view of events. Perhaps the prejudice is so distorting that they completely fail to notice what nonsense – it cannot be called any other name – they are talking about.
Or is it that they are simply obscuring their reality? The goal of further economic and political domination of Poland?
The goal has already been achieved because Germany has dominated Poland economically. Politically, the Polish economy has been colonized by Germany. For the Germans, it is more of a problem if Poland tries to emancipate itself, to be more independent in a sense because the Germans exploit Poland on a large scale. The German government supported corruption in Poland. It did so deliberately. They knew that this would facilitate their colonization and exploitation of Poland. I want to emphasize that I am a supporter of economic cooperation because without it our country would not function well; however, all pathologies should be fought, pathologies such as corruption, which makes it easier for the Germans to operate in Poland, because they supported certain political parties. They probably still do, but maybe in a different form. Once it was literally by bringing along money in suitcases earmarked for a specific party, to Gdańsk in particular, and now, in a sense, they are harvesting the crops. But it is all at the expense of the Poles. This is tragic. And, of course, the Germans do not want to let go; they do not want Poland to be ruled by a party that, for example, demands war reparations. From their point of view, this is unheard of.
They perceive Poland in a very racist way and there is no other way to call it. This has been a German tradition practically since the 19th century, and the Germans have not yet come to terms with it. These anti-Polish prejudices are so firmly ingrained in them that they do not even realize that they have such prejudices because they are convinced that it is so. This is anti-Polonism written into the German cultural DNA. As long as they are not aware of this, we will have the situation we have. Poles have to deal with it somehow because the Germans are comfortable with such a perception of Poland, and now, of course, they have instruments in their arsenal – pressure through Brussels – and they would like to implement it politically so that Poland would become a country like during the times of Donald Tusk. They would love to see a prime minister in Poland who would completely ignore the interests of the Polish state and would be subordinate to them – a person who would be a perfect executor of orders from Berlin and, of course, from Moscow. Donald Tusk is just like Putin.
Geopolitically, Poland is an obstruction to Germany in this Russian-Putin-German alliance. After all, Germany had great dissatisfaction with the conflict over the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. Still, it showed that Polish interests are different, and Germany does not care at all about any international solidarity, peace, or security. This aspect plays no role whatsoever. They overlook the aspect that they actually support Putin’s war. This is passed over in silence. The ruling CDU / CSU parties have managed to bash the public media so badly that there is not a single center from where a different voice could be heard. There are exceptions – sometimes a single voice will break through – but this is not a balanced, normal debate. The Germans are getting brainwashed to such an extent that the issue of, for example, Nord Stream 2 is seen as purely a financial one. Currently, of course, this ignores the fact – there are many indications of this – that Putin does indeed manipulate gas prices, or at least influence them.
There are voices, but they are isolated, as in some of the printed media, but this is unlikely to be found in the public media, that if the Greens and the FPD are to be in power to block the SPD, they should stop supporting Putin so much. But these are single voices, and they are not widely heard. Islam is promoted on German television, and Poland is, as always, put down. Unfortunately.
Are there any statements in this German political discourse that try to put pressure on the CJEU, for example, on the conditionality mechanism or other issues that concern Poland?
There are such voices of indignation all the time that pressure cannot be let up on Poland. This is standard in Germany. It is said that terrible things are happening in Poland. When you read it, it seems that it is scary to go out into the streets at all in Poland because there’s such “heavy censure” there.
Those like judge Iwulski simply hold Poland back (a judge who charged and sentenced innocent Poles during the martial law period. There are attempts at holding him and others like him accountable for crimes during the communist era as part of Poland’s judicial reform) but Germany completely ignores this aspect. It is unimaginable, but unfortunately, this is their tradition from the National Socialism period because all these judges have made it through unscathed from one system to another. The system had not been reformed. It was kept intact, and the criminals protected themselves. I’m talking about lawyers and judges.
It was similar in Poland, but there was still some resistance movement in Poland, while in Germany, there was never an anti-Nazi resistance movement. Only later, when everything collapsed. But there were no broader movements to oppose National Socialism. It was the same in the GDR. Germany does not have a tradition of fighting for freedom, fighting for democracy. It is not a German tradition; they did not have it. Germany as a country has a different past. Poles have this tradition of fighting for independence. Once, I asked a German from the GDR why they did not try to go on strikes, and he replied, “Well, it was forbidden.” Resistance was forbidden, and now, of course, they are playing the great defenders of democracy and the rule of law, which is an extraordinary level of hypocrisy.
The German constitution, which they so protect and which they are so proud of, has two articles designed to protect German criminals from punishment. They omit the aspect that their constitution was intended to safeguard German criminals, their own, from punishment. This is still the case today, but they keep silent about it. They learned one thing after 1945 through intrigues, machinations, misrepresentations – they became masters of historical and other propaganda. They really are champions. If the main instrument of the German state to this day is not the army, which they do not have, but propaganda, then we must remember that propaganda works only in black and white images because propaganda cannot perceive shades of gray – otherwise, it would not function. This is the principle of propaganda. And who is the main target of this propaganda? Who are the “black sheep?” Why, the Polish people. This has been going on for a long time, and it is to Germany that we owe this image of Poland in and outside of Germany. The “black sheep” is not Putin, or any other dictator, or Lukashenko. In German propaganda, the greatest threat to peace in Europe is Kaczyński and PiS. It is incredible, but that is how it works.
If the Germans had come to terms with National Socialism and the legacy of the NSDAP back then, after 1945, would everything look different today?
The Germans could not afford to settle accounts, to lock up all the men in the country. The crime was so great that if they punished those responsible, the state simply could not function. Not that I’m defending them, but in Germany, they were all National Socialists. If all those responsible for the crime were directly or indirectly arrested, they would have to arrest the state because the entire state apparatus was involved. They didn’t have other people to replace them; there was no such possibility. They were forced to protect themselves for the state to function. It sounds paradoxical, but that’s how it was. Therefore, they had to work out a defense mechanism. They play it out using propaganda – someone will kneel once in a while to express or display a sense of guilt. Still, the criminals are legally protected against penalties, and Germany does not want to pay for war damages because this would be a heavy burden on the German budget. If they were to pay for the damages that were not the result of military battles but deliberate destruction, quite a sum would have accumulated – a few percent of their GDP would be gone. They are protecting themselves against this, and that is why they will continue to slander Poland. No one in the international arena will support Poland’s demands for reparation because of Poland’s bad image. This is how propaganda works, and we must be aware of it. It sounds brutal, but Poland has no chance in such a case because Poland does not have soft power. Poland has a problem in Poland itself – after all we have German lobbying – and I don’t know if this is an adequate term for these people. There exists an infatuation with Germany in Poland, which is quite dangerous for Poland.
Thank you for the interview
https://wpolityce.pl/swiat/569883-prof-musial-niemcy-graja-na-to-aby-pis-stracil-wladze
